AoS Age Of Sigmar - Lizards namedropped

[Bainbow]

And about the Uber characters? Ok, perhaps most armies have some counters, however, for example, the Nagash player will know what they are and have counters to the counters. With both my orcs and lizardmen I really need to prepare for such a monster character, and that will mean 90% of the list builts are useless. And even if i would bring my own super character, then two 1000 point characters slugging it out against each other is just boring as hell, just leave your other stuff at home.

Well the thing is, you don't need to prepare lists for them specifically. You just need to have prepared tactics for them, not lists. My basic End Times army has no specific counter for the big guys, but I've killed Malekith the Eternity King twice now in two battles against him, and I'm racking up my Verminlord tally (five Verminlords so far, all were Corrupters oddly enough, I would have used Deceivers.) In my mind, if you have an adaptable enough army and your tactics are fast enough, there is no single build that can auto-beat you.

 

[borkbork]

@Bainbow , Sorry, but i feel that is a bit nonsense. I know I am not the best player in the world, but if you dont have the right tools your tactics have to be out of this planet to make a difference.

Like i said before, i did not bother too much with end times, so i only know the stats of Nagash, Franz and grimgor,
About Karl Franz there have been like six pages of discussion on here, without anyone having a proper idea, other than arcane unforging. (which is a tool and not a tactic).

 

[Bainbow]

@Bainbow , Sorry, but i feel that is a bit nonsense. I know I am not the best player in the world, but if you dont have the right tools your tactics have to be out of this planet to make a difference.

Like i said before, i did not bother too much with end times, so i only know the stats of Nagash, Franz and grimgor,
About Karl Franz there have been like six pages of discussion on here, without anyone having a proper idea, other than arcane unforging. (which is a tool and not a tactic).

Oh yeah you need the right tools, but those tools need not be tailored specifically for the big ones. My kit is specifically designed around total adaptability, and I'm constantly tweaking it to improve that aspect of my army. I have no one counter on my list for anything except for Skaven and shooting, the rest is raw tactical application.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Out with all those ridiculous lets-destory-everything spells

I agree that those uber spells hurt the game as a whole. I think fixing them could be accomplished with just two easy steps...

1. Allow ward saves to be taken against them (all of a sudden magic resistance items make a whole lot more sense)
2. Change the spells so that they wound each model rather than auto-killing them

Concerning combine armies consider this - 15 or whatever armies are a lot. I love it, but also respect that GW cannot properly balance and update it. In a world where you need to trim the fat to ac tually bring more frequant FAQ updates and army updates I'd be okay with combining armies in a meaningful way. I don't think GW did that though and while some of it was okay other things was just completely off the chart dumb.

I agree that 15 armies is a lot to maintain.... but why did GW split Chaos in the first place? (to make some quick $$$). This is a lack of long term planning. This problem was self inflicted.

Additionally, the end times just threw the armies together carelessly. There were no rules to counterbalance the increase in power the combined armies enjoyed due to increased unit/character/item availability. So it was not really fair to armies that had to stand alone.

I agree with you that having a smaller number of factions will allow GW to update them more frequently, but I disagree about better FAQ support. FAQ support, even with 15 armies, is easy, quick and cheap. The only reason why we don't get timely FAQ support is due to GW's laziness or indifference. Moving into 9th I would have no problem with a combined chaos list (without skaven) because they make sense together. Combined Elves and Undead would be a little less ideal, but I could live with it if done properly.

I could accept that IF done in a smart and meaningful way, BUT we all know GW is incapable of that and instead they've sent the IP for the butcher the way it seems.

YUP

@Bainbow , Sorry, but i feel that is a bit nonsense. I know I am not the best player in the world, but if you dont have the right tools your tactics have to be out of this planet to make a difference.

Like i said before, i did not bother too much with end times, so i only know the stats of Nagash, Franz and grimgor,
About Karl Franz there have been like six pages of discussion on here, without anyone having a proper idea, other than arcane unforging. (which is a tool and not a tactic).

I agree, those characters pose problems to all comers lists. Some armies (those with cannons) will have no problem, while others will suffer. It's okay to put them into an army list if both players agree (and prepare) beforehand, but I don't think it works well for all comers lists and would grow tiresome very quickly. Like you said, they can be extremely unbalanced against certain lists, granting the wielder an unfair advantage. I think that is why most tournaments banned them very quickly.

 

[Sleboda]

You are of course entitled to that opinion, but I highly disagree:

• The creation of super powered factions (combined Elven and Chaos armies)............. horrible
• The creation of uber characters (Nagash, KFA, etc.).................................................... horrible
• The creation of a more time consuming magic phase.................................................... horrible
• The destruction of 30 years of fluff.................................................................................. horrible
• The release of a bunch of terrible models (with the exception of Nagash)..................... horrible

Just for fun on a lazy Sunday (before I go paint more Old Ones - see my thread here: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/painting-the-old-ones.16346/) here are my thoughts there:

• The Elf Legion is abusive.
• The Chaos Legion is mostly fine and really adds variety to "Beastmen" lists.
• The Undead Legion brought rules to Tomb Kings that took them from "absolute clear loserville army of all Warhammer" to "Hey, with a little thought this army is fair now."
• I have played against both KFA and Nagash. Neither are overpowered. I was a single die pip away from killing KFA the first time I played against him, and it was strategy and understanding his rules that allowed me to compete against him. Nagash is not bad IF you require your opponent to have the correct, painted models for his summoned troops, just as you would for all his regular troops. What Nagash DOES do is change the game to be pretty much a Turn One decider. If you can kill him turn 1, you win. If not, you won't. So, he's fair, just not a whole lot of fun if you don't like that sort of game. BTW, he's freaking 1000 points. Yikes!
• The magic phase was probably the second best thing about End Times. The -only- thing I wanted to see clarified/agreed on is that a failed casting stops that spell from being re-cast. Play that way and you still have to think, and it gets less boring and long. I LOVE the random power dice as this shifted the randomness away from the Stupid Place (a 1000 year old wizard has random spells every day) and to the Fluff Place (can that wizard master the winds and marshal the power to cast his spells?).
• Fluffkill was great. It pained me to read about my beloved Tomb Kings getting the beat down, but as a grand sendoff filled with references to almost everything that every happened in the Old World...it was a joy to read.
• Loved the models. Bought 10 Morghasts, all 3 Mortarchs, Gutrot Spume, and more. Plan to buy Nagash, Thanquol, 2 vermin lords, Glottkin, the 3 Maggoth Lords, blightkings, and a pile of Stormfiends if the next edition gives me a reason to.

To each his own, though.

I agree that those uber spells hurt the game as a whole. I think fixing them could be accomplished with just two easy steps...

1. Allow ward saves to be taken against them (all of a sudden magic resistance items make a whole lot more sense)
2. Change the spells so that they wound each model rather than auto-killing them

=> Ha! (he said, in a friendly mocking tone) It's no wonder you think Nagash and company are too good! Right now, Nagash has to fear these spells. Hey, it may only be 1 in 6, but does the Nagash player really want to risk it?

Allowing wards and doing 1 wound would make the game less balanced. Supercharacters FTW!

Well the thing is, you don't need to prepare lists for them specifically. You just need to have prepared tactics for them, not lists. My basic End Times army has no specific counter for the big guys, ...

=> Fair point, and one that leads to...

How many people who grouse about balance (pre- and post- End Times both) also play only Battleline and don't use the mysterious terrain rules? I think we need a poll... (hint hint Nightbringer)

 

[borkbork]

I agree that 15 armies is a lot to maintain.... but why did GW split Chaos in the first place? (to make some quick $$$). This is a lack of long term planning. This problem was self inflicted.

Exactly, I personally have never understood Ogre Kingdoms for example. They were a nice addition to Orcs & Goblins, Empire, and Chaos (although the latter featured different models).

How many people who grouse about balance (pre- and post- End Times both) also play only Battleline and don't use the mysterious terrain rules? I think we need a poll... (hint hint Nightbringer)

Guilty on the terrain, and a little to the battleline as well. I totally see your point about the scenarios, but the terrain can actually even enhance existinig inbalances.

 

[Mr Phat]

... but the terrain can actually even enhance existinig inbalances.

Like when a unit of WE archers with trueflight arrows gives exactly the same amount of _ _ _ _'s towards my skinks in a river, as towards my skinks outside the river: Non.

 

[airjamy]

According to Harry any idea of an army book should be forgotten.

And Harry also just has rumours. XD One of the consistent rumours was the whole deal around LM dissapearing between the cracks in the whole factions setup, this is what fixes that. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[airjamy]

You are of course entitled to that opinion, but I highly disagree:

• The creation of super powered factions (combined Elven and Chaos armies)............. horrible
• The creation of uber characters (Nagash, KFA, etc.).................................................... horrible
• The creation of a more time consuming magic phase.................................................... horrible
• The destruction of 30 years of fluff.................................................................................. horrible
• The release of a bunch of terrible models (with the exception of Nagash)..................... horrible

The only positive thing (IMHO) about the End Times was that it never really fully caught on. Some areas or gaming groups may have been fully on board, but it was regarded as only a supplement or even completely rejected amongst many groups of players community-wide.


I can't blame you there, if I had invested that much money and time, I'd be pissed off if it was scrapped.

The moment that High Elves and Dark elves ´´allied´´ was the biggest smashup for me. Those two armies are like the biggest enemies of one another, this is one of the biggest conflicts in the whole Warhammer fluff, and they just got together? I could not ever understand that, and it did nothing to stop power creep and the dominance of especially WOC. TO be completely honest, the reason i have not been to single tournaments this year is the WOC dominance, i have no ETC team to play with so it made my enthousiasm to go so low that i did not..

 

[Bainbow]

The moment that High Elves and Dark elves ´´allied´´ was the biggest smashup for me. Those two armies are like the biggest enemies of one another, this is one of the biggest conflicts in the whole Warhammer fluff, and they just got together? I could not ever understand that, and it did nothing to stop power creep and the dominance of especially WOC. TO be completely honest, the reason i have not been to single tournaments this year is the WOC dominance, i have no ETC team to play with so it made my enthousiasm to go so low that i did not..

Tell you what I would have loved to see, more of the Aestyrion. I would have been totally happy if they filled the Dark Elf void, hell I think it would have been fluff gold. Character development for two of the more cliched characters, Malekith and Tyrion, as we get a heel-face turn and a face-heel turn and some very interesting parallels between the two of them. Sadly while Malekith got his much needed brilliant development, Tyrion's fall was completely undone by the time Archaon rolled round, which is a shame because I hate Tyrion but that whole Avatar of Khaine thing made me really like him, I wish they were brave enough to go all the way.

 

[Sleboda]

The moment that High Elves and Dark elves ´´allied´´ was the biggest smashup for me. Those two armies are like the biggest enemies of one another, this is one of the biggest conflicts in the whole Warhammer fluff, and they just got together? I could not ever understand that, and it did nothing to stop power creep and the dominance of especially WOC. TO be completely honest, the reason i have not been to single tournaments this year is the WOC dominance, i have no ETC team to play with so it made my enthousiasm to go so low that i did not..

No offense intended, but did you read all the books? They did a really damn good job of showing how enemies can be allies, how wizards (Gelt) can fall into Necromancy, how mortal men can fight side by side with undead...in other words, they fluffed all the changes really well.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I see lots of discussion on the value of the End Times (which I admittedly started us on). As I typically like to do, I've created a poll and a thread in an attempt to get some numbers/votes behind our arguments....

http://www.lustria-online.com/threa...nk-of-the-end-times-rules-fluff-models.16348/

 

[Matty]

Hey everyone! New here and so out of the warhammer loop by a few years. I have not read the end times, but have tried to get as much info about what happened and what could happen with warhammer going forward. I assume most of our lizard friends left the world in floating parts of Lustria. I am not sure if events since then are now 100 years later in the Age of Sigmar..or 9th edition as rumoured? Either way I wonder if the Lizards left temperarily and returned better equiped to deal with chaos? Perhaps the old ones called them back to improve them and upgrade them as warriors and they are returning as new warriors...like going from primative native jungle warriors to super samurai?

 

[Slanputin]

Not to throw spanners in the various rumour mechanisms that are currently ongoing, but it appears Fantasy may not be the only game to be having a base change....

I assume most of our lizard friends left the world in floating parts of Lustria. I am not sure if events since then are now 100 years later in the Age of Sigmar..or 9th edition as rumoured? Either way I wonder if the Lizards left temperarily and returned better equiped to deal with chaos? Perhaps the old ones called them back to improve them and upgrade them as warriors and they are returning as new warriors...like going from primative native jungle warriors to super samurai?

1) Correct, the Pyramids turned out to have engines, and Lord Kroak lifted chunks of Lustria into the air and "beyond the horizon" (which I assume is a fancy way to say space).
2)Age of Sigmar is thought to be distinct from the release of 9th - rumours suggest it's a smaller skirmish style game. We currently have little knowledge on the fluff re: Age of Sigmar. So far rumours suggest it could occur in the early days of the Empire, so pre-End Times.
3)So...Saurus clad in armour upgraded with Old One tech and wielding superior weaponry, are you saying that SaurusMarines are now a thing?! In all seriousness, if the LM are supported come 9th I do hope they take it as an opportunity to diversify our army beyond Skinks and Saurus.

 

[Matty]

Hmm my mind is full of crazy ideas..pyramids with engines. I wonder if our Lizard friends could return to battles from space aka by those pyramids like in the Star Gate movie. Okay way past my bed time, but imagine this..A city of the Empire is being destroyed by chaos, The Lizards see this from where ever they are now and send out a pyramid craft of warriors to assist in the battle against chaos. Out of the pyramid pours light sabre weilding skinks and saurus warriors, who now call themselves the warriors of light..who in return train those that oppose chaos to use these weapons!

 

[Matty]

oh thanks slanputin for the update and reply!

 

[Slanputin]

GW has officially posted up the teaser on their websites, here's the official page: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Age-of-Sigmar

Hmm my mind is full of crazy ideas..pyramids with engines. I wonder if our Lizard friends could return to battles from space aka by those pyramids like in the Star Gate movie. Okay way past my bed time, but imagine this..A city of the Empire is being destroyed by chaos, The Lizards see this from where ever they are now and send out a pyramid craft of warriors to assist in the battle against chaos. Out of the pyramid pours light sabre weilding skinks and saurus warriors, who now call themselves the warriors of light..who in return train those that oppose chaos to use these weapons!

Ha, I do like the idea of floating cities for the Lizardmen: they had a floating pyramid on the map in the 7th edition rulebook, and it's a fantasy trope that's relatively untouched in the fluff (beyond Fozzriks' Flying Fortress anyway).

As much as I like the idea of a bunch of Skink all armed with lightsabres Blades of Realities, somehow I think it could well be a little over-powered

 

[Matty]

Lol pfft..over powered skinks cant be that bad!? Hey was it not the warpstones that changed both the skaven and beastmen? Have any Lizardmen come in contact with them ? I am sure it is possible considering the many invasions by Skaven. Are lizardmen immune to the corruption of chaos? I like the sounds of Blades of realities! Perhaps only heroes can master the use of these! I still like the idea of our troops coming back with new abilities and info on fighting back chaos.

 

[borkbork]

Not to throw spanners in the various rumour mechanisms that are currently ongoing, but it appears Fantasy may not be the only game to be having a base change....

Lol, like those 40k things were not perfectly square to begin with.

 

[Bainbow]

So far rumours suggest it could occur in the early days of the Empire, so pre-End Times.

See, this is exactly why I never ever listen to rumours. It would be rather cool to see the world during the classic age of Sigmar before Archaon, Grimgor, and the like. But that rumour is just, well, not clearly thought through. All the information we have on the Age of Sigmar revolves around "what happens next, what happens next, the Lizards survived the End Times, can the Undead actually die so easily, who's still alive, what happens next?" That's very clearly going on about what happens next, shocking I know.