8th Ed. New Lizardman army book and info

[GCPD]

No, they would have done that last night, like they moved the Swarms out. All slot changes are processed at the same time.

 

[Mr Phat]

well......guess my Saurus block wont get fat then....neither will my skirmishers lose lung-capacity -.-

 

[Chunk]

It's funny, the Lizardmen have this rich, tragic background, and all I really care about is fighting people with dinosaurs.


Anyway, I've done some "research", though I'm not sure how useful it'll be.

In the battle report, although they don't put points values in anymore, I calculated that the Tomb Kings army was 3,049pts. An odd limit, though I assume it was a matter of "take the cool stuff and have it roughly equal 3000pts" or similar.

I find it interesting that the TK army has quite a few magic items scattered amongst their characters, whereas the Lizardmen had very few. Heck, the Mage-Priest didn't have any! I take this to mean that since they wanted to shoe-horn in as many monsters as they could, points became tight, with the implication being that although they didn't mention a pts limit, there was one being roughly enforced.

Using this rough guide (3000pts a side), and keeping the Core at the same price they are now (as they are unlikely to change), here's my prediction for points values for the army (for the units shown)

Let's start with what we know:

- Carnosaur is 220pts*

- Scar-Vet as shown in the battle report is 96pts

- Trologon is 200pts*

- Salamander Hunting Packs are 80pts/pack*

- Stegadon is 215pts*

Okay, now let's put in what I call "educated guesses", basically unit points that probably haven't changed or if they have, won't have changed significantly. Added into these is the fact that Command options are a flat 10pts/option now as opposed to being pointed differently (not that it changes the Saurus' pt cost any.

- The Saurus units in the list are approx. 360pts apiece (11pts/saurus, 10pts per command option)

- The Skink unit is approx. 315pts (5pts/skink, 10pts for the Brave, 165pts for the Krox), this is a dodgy one since I'm convinced Krox will decrease in points by between 5 and 10 points, but we'll go with what we know for now.

So, where does this leave us? The points above equal 2006pts, leaving us (once again assuming we're dealing with 3000pts approx) with 1000pts.

Into these 1000pts we must place:

- Oldblood
- Mage-Priest
- 2 Bastiladons (one w. Solar engine)
- 3 jungle swarms
- 6 terradons

Of these, the terradons are unlikely to change drastically, so let's mark them down as 180pts for now.

Jungle swarms I predict to drop by 10-15pts, mainly because they're now in Special as opposed to Core, meaning taking them inhibits your ability to take stegadons, bastiladons, etc etc, so let's mark them down as costing 100pts

280pts so far, leaving 720. I'm just going to phone it in and say the Oldblood won't change cost, and estimate that with LA and Shield, he'll cost about 155. My reasoning for this is he and the Scar-Vet have traditionally been compared with the Scar-Vet being favoured (since they were not significantly differentiated). Now however, the Scar-Vet, whilst dropping 5pts in price, has also lost a point of toughness. Hence, the Oldblood is now our only source of a tough-as-nails leader, combine the difference with the Oldblood being the same price...more people take the Oldblood (and are tempted to take the Carnosaur, thus buying the kit...)

155pts for the Oldblood leaves 565pts for the mage-priest and the 2 bastiladons.

Now for the -really- theoretical stuff (laid upon a foundation about as structurally sound as a flan)

With the stegadon being 215pts, the bastiladon's role needs to be carefully considered in order to estimate it's cost in comparison. Stat-wise I'd wager they're almost the same, though I assume the Bastiladon's armour save to be at least 3+, but almost certainly 2+. This is founded upon a piece of descriptive text for the Bastiladon on the GW website

"The most heavily armoured beast in Lustria..."

Now, the ancient stegadon has a 3+ armour save, hence making the Bastiladon's a 2+ (remember what I said about shaky ground)

The Bastiladon won't be as offensive as the stegadon, taking away the impact hits, though I believe its strength and attacks will be the same.

Thus, my prediction is that the Bastilodon is between 180-200pts, trending towards the higher end. Let's put them down as 190pts, plus 20pts for the solar engine, making it 400pts all up.

Here's where it falls down, since with the bastiladons at 400, the mage priest has to be 165pts.

Surely, some kind of mistake? Mage-Priests can't be that cheap.

We know that they don't have an option to be level 3, and that they have an inherent protective field, like they do now.

Let's have a look at why the Mage-Priest is one of the best lord level wizards in the game (as they are today)

- Inherent 4+ ward save
- 5 wounds
- Can hide in Temple Guard units
- A myriad of helpful Disciplines

Of these, by far the most impactful is the Disciplines, from +d6 to any casting attempt, to Ethereal, removing all 6s from the opponent's casting attempts...these are why the Mage-Priest is the premier magic user.

As such, I predict that the disciplines will change -drastically-, in effect mainly, and this is where the balancing between the Slann Mage-Priest and the new Skink High Priest will occur.

After all, before now we didn't have another option for a Lord-level caster, and now we (almost certainly) do.

As such, the mage-priest will be (I predict) approx. 300pts, and at its core will be almost identical to how it is now.

Of course, that sort of throws off the whole "roughly 3000pts" idea, putting us over the TK by about 86pts, not including the cost of the Becalming Cogitation discipline, which I think will probably be free (in the same way that they get the 1st discipline free and pay for the subsequent ones)

But 86pts (assuming they were trying to get 3,049pts like the TK) is not a huge amount, and given that many of the pts costs above are estimated, there could easily be a difference (for example, terradon riders could be 5pts cheaper, Kroxigor could be 15pts cheaper, etc etc etc)


TL;DR

So, to summarise my predictions:

Mage-Priest fundamentally unchanged - 300pts

Oldblood fundamentally unchanged - 145pts

Bastiladon - 190pts (Solar engine 20pt upgrade)

Jungle Swarms - 30pts/base

Terradons - same

Saurus - same

Skinks - same

Kroxigor - 5-15pt reduction, str increased to 5


*I apologise if posting flat pts is against the rules, though I checked them and they only mention magic items, not mounts or other upgrades

There's also a Predictions thread already, but since this rambled around a bit and the topic became somewhat blurred, I thought the general discussion thread would be a better place for it.

Thanks for reading! If you have any ideas or comments about my...theories, please, voice them.

 

[GCPD]

280pts so far, leaving 720. I'm just going to phone it in and say the Oldblood won't change cost, and estimate that with LA and Shield, he'll cost about 155. My reasoning for this is he and the Scar-Vet have traditionally been compared with the Scar-Vet being favoured (since they were not significantly differentiated). Now however, the Scar-Vet, whilst dropping 5pts in price, has also lost a point of toughness. H

Wait, are you sure? Its blurry, but it looks like a 5 for me.

 

[Chunk]

As sure as I can be (let's say 95%), the Str and Tou values are different, certainly. The shapes are different, anyway.

 

[GCPD]

It doesn't look much like the 4 used in the Attacks value, though. That one appears to be straight vertical, whereas the figure in Toughness looks much more slanted or curved, similar to the 5 next to it in Strength.

Edit: In any case, great analysis! Really comprehensive. I wish GW could actually throw us a bone and tell us what some of the new changes are...

 

[Chunk]

You're certainly right about the shapes between the Toughness and Attacks values looking quite different, let's hope I'm dead wrong and the Scar-Vet's toughness remains 5.

And thanks! I intended it to be far shorter, but then I just kept finding stuff to write about...

 

[stormtruperTK41]

I am more inclined to believe that lizards took no magic items or upgrades on their characters so they wouldn't have to tell us what they do. The level of secrecy GW has even one week before launch is borderline paranoid scitzo

 

[Chunk]

That is certainly possible, but if the Lizardmen book follows the trend that has been set by all the other army books before it, the number of magic items will be around 8, and many will be expensive.

There are also many common magic items that would've worked well for various characters, an enchanted shield for the Oldblood for example, or the armour of destiny for the battle standard bearer, or even a dispel scroll for the slann, none of which would require an explanation since their rules are already known.

 

[Gator]

You're certainly right about the shapes between the Toughness and Attacks values looking quite different, let's hope I'm dead wrong and the Scar-Vet's toughness remains 5.

And thanks! I intended it to be far shorter, but then I just kept finding stuff to write about...

I have the digital copy of White Dwarf and it clearly shows that the Scar Vet still has T5. Also, there's a video where they talk about the BATREP and saurus still have 2A along with predatory fighter rule. The Lizzie player also informed that Saurus, Krox, Carnasuar, Troglodon have the predatory fighter rule. He said pretty much everything that is good at fighting has it, but he named those four specifically.

 

[GCPD]

This pleases me

Edit: The guys on Warseer have pointed out that Kroq-Gar has lost a pip of Initiative too. This is surprising as the Scar-Vet definately has 3 too. Oldblood nerf, or just Toughness 6

 

[Chunk]

I have the digital copy of White Dwarf and it clearly shows that the Scar Vet still has T5. Also, there's a video where they talk about the BATREP and saurus still have 2A along with predatory fighter rule. The Lizzie player also informed that Saurus, Krox, Carnasuar, Troglodon have the predatory fighter rule. He said pretty much everything that is good at fighting has it, but he named those four specifically.

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar, and that information makes me a very happy skink.

 

[Gator]

Also terradons, ripperdactyls are flying cav not MC. Except for Tiq taq to who is MC. Also Tiq taq to allows for other terradons in his unit to gain the ambusher rule for 5pts a model

 

[Niezck]

Because clearly, I4 for our lord level hero is too much... Or maybe it's GW "synergy", where we're required to take a Solar Engine or Hand of Glory to return his I to where it was previously...

EDIT: Curious, don't Rippers have 2W? So surely them being flying cavalry is utterly pointless?

 

[Rikard]

Something I saw on the preview version of Itunes.

I don't think it's a hint of sacred spawnings being back as Xhotl was a spawning unique to Krok gar.

 

[GCPD]

Also terradons, ripperdactyls are flying cav not MC. Except for Tiq taq to who is MC. Also Tiq taq to allows for other terradons in his unit to gain the ambusher rule for 5pts a model

Their troop type is "Monstrous Cavalry." Flying Cavalry is just a special rule they have they lets them fly like Skirmishers.

Edit: So, yes, you use the Ripper's Toughness and Wounds. Toughness 3 and 2 Wounds! Gee, that'll help us against Monstrous Cavalry and Daemon Princes. Thanks GW!

The one possible saving grace is that they have Scaly Skin 6+, would get +1 for being mounted, and quite clearly have shields for 4+ total. In addition, their helmets may indicate Light Armour for that all important 3+ armour save. If they do, they might just be as good as Bloodcrushers - in other words, as good as the worst Monstrous Cavalry in the game already.

Edit2: It also means Skink Chiefs get no bonus at all, being T3 W2 already.

 

[rychek]

The lack of T on the rippers and terradons makes me very, very sad. It is deal breakingly bad for me.

 

[n810]

I think Grymlok may have a few more attacks though...

 

[Tzukhanx]

Grymloq has always had 5 attacks. Its one more than a normal carnosaur, which is hinting that the carnosaur didn't really change beyond a new model and optional upgrades. The spawning has always been a special rule for him, so I don't think we get spawnings. On the topic of GW and their secrecy about what is coming out is due to their screw up with LoTR. When their models, rules and such leaked, bits and pieces of the movies actually leaked, that's why when they renewed their contract to do the Hobbit models, they basically do NO announcements for them because any spoilers costs the franchise money, and they will lose their contract. This has just spread over to all parts of GW. Even store managers have zero idea of some things coming out until it arrives on their shop's doorstep.

 

[Caneghem]

The lack of T on the rippers and terradons makes me very, very sad. It is deal breakingly bad for me.

They are going to be glass cannon type units, requiring finesse much like the current Terradons do. You'll have to learn to size up your opponent before the game and pick the perfect target for the rippers and place your bloat toad there. They are definite medium cav. I think they are weighing in at around 40 points per model (last I saw) so two units will serve you pretty well for hunting warmachines, chaff, and maybe mage bunker units. They most definitely should NOT take on mainline fighting duties like the typical monstrous cav. You'll need to hold them near your Ld bubble due to frenzy early on, adding another layer of consideration.

This is actually the kind of unit I really love to be honest.