8th Ed. The Path to Awesome - Tracking Every Game Ever

[Putzfrau]

I give my scar vets GWs.

What armour are we talking about again? -4 armoursave brings 1+ to 5+, wyssans reduces that to 6+. In a TG bunker with razor banner = no armour.

I regularly face dwarfs, and aside

from wyssans, I've never needed magic to deal with armour. Hell, I'd rather nuke the slayers/gw guys than the heavily armoured guys. heavy armour doesn't hurt, gws do.

Something like empire knights or chickens. Or a lot of things in WoC, which lizardmen can have issues with.

My vets have GW too. I think of it like this: lizardmen rely on scar vets to handle a lot of issues. Searing doom means they can do something else because you have something for armor.

There is always multiple targets for your scar vets. If you don't have to send them into armor, isn't that a good thing? Without searing doom you pretty much have to.

 

[Screamer]

I agree with Putzfrau. You can only have that many scar-vets before you run out of points or good magic items.

And I don't agree that Wyssans is bad just because you miss50% of the time. If you do the math, you'll see that it's better than +1 to hit, since you modify armour, and +1T is almost as good as -1 to hit against anything with S3-6, except for poison and armour-save.

@Sleboda: Well, miscasting 3 times in game with only two-dicing... wow.
And the cannons vs krox: Shouldn't the cannonball stop with the first save or failed to wound?

 

[Markhaus]

The slann is in my army to dispel magic (3 channel dice at 5-6, reroll dispel, level 4 means my opponents rarely get spells off), make the temple guard (the true mvps) stubborn, immune to psychology and frenzy with skavenpelt. If I get wildform or earth blood off, all the better, but he is mainly a 500 point buff to the block of temple guard.

Still worth his points. Though after trying 5 games with high magic I am switching back to WD or lore of life. He just is not a great caster, and definitely not worth losing to cascade.

Bastiladon has been removed from my list for awhile. I have never seen him hit, so even though I use 10 strength on the tail (our interpretation is the +1 for behind) it has never come up. I used him for 10 games or so, because I love the model and my paint job, but he just doesn't shine at anything when you have WD slann.

 

[GCPD]

I guess I look at magic to compensate for a weakness, and to me that is combat ability.

Guess it comes down to preference. I don't find myself in combat very often, and if I do it usually means i'm going to lose and no amount of magic is going to change that.

I also don't think think you're giving spirit leech and searing doom enough credit. Yeah, saurus characters can deal with armor, but this way they don't have to.

That makes sense. WD works better in the avoidance list as it goes back to utility. It's why it also works well on High Elf Loremaster as the Elves don't need as much combat buffs and benefit more from the ones that are there (in fact, all of them reduce elves dying, a key weakness, but only two hel Saurus with theirs and both are marginal).

But for lizardmen combat army like mine or Slebodas I think that one of the brb lores is better (and cheaper), but especially light and heavens.

 

[RipperDerek]

I don't understand the point to Wandering Deliberations. Focus of Mystery just seems better. High magic has all the versatility, but without sacrificing the punch.

If you want Wyssan's, Searing Doom, or Spirit Leech on your Slann, you can get them easily. But this way you still have access to Fiery Convocation, which you can just throw 6 dice at to ream problem units like executioner hordes. You also get a variety of other utility spells you don't get with WD (like arcane unforging).

That said, the best spell caster in our book (especially for the points) is almost assuredly Tetto.

 

[Putzfrau]

I don't understand the point to Wandering Deliberations. Focus of Mystery just seems better. High magic has all the versatility, but without sacrificing the punch.

If you want Wyssan's, Searing Doom, or Spirit Leech on your Slann, you can get them easily. But this way you still have access to Fiery Convocation, which you can just throw 6 dice at to ream problem units like executioner hordes. You also get a variety of other utility spells you don't get with WD (like arcane unforging).

That said, the best spell caster in our book (especially for the points) is almost assuredly Tetto.

Because swapping spells to get those means casting ones you dont want. If you want those spells its way more efficient to just use WD.


WD is better in almost every situation.

 

[RipperDerek]

WD is better in almost every situation.

Whoah now, that's not true at all.

Horde of Executioners/Witch Elves/Greatswords/Tombguards/Nurgle Plaguebearers/Skaven/Grave guard/skeletons/etc., you'd rather have Fiery Convo than anything in WD.

Delaying 1 turn to cast Wyssan's is not a big deal. You probably won't be in combat turn 1 anyways. And if you really really really want it turn 1, you can still do it with a skink. WD is largely useless as far as I can tell.

 

[NexS1]

WD is better in almost every situation.

Whoah now, that's not true at all.

Horde of Executioners/Witch Elves/Greatswords/Tombguards/Nurgle Plaguebearers/Skaven/Grave guard/skeletons/etc., you'd rather have Fiery Convo than anything in WD.

Delaying 1 turn to cast Wyssan's is not a big deal. You probably won't be in combat turn 1 anyways. And if you really really really want it turn 1, you can still do it with a skink. WD is largely useless as far as I can tell.

I agree, Derek. I've been playing my Slann/TG unit as turn 4 combat unit, leaving plenty of time to cast spells.

Also, Putzfrau, I wouldn't say that it's a matter of casting spells you don't want. It's more of creating a situation where you want the spell once. Maybe you cast Arcane unforging and destroy the enemy general's armour. "Job done, i'll have some lore of life now". Or you move your krox up for a next-turn charge against some empire gunmen, so cast tempest, get a wound off and they're now hitting on 6's or 7's. "Job done. I'll have some metal magic now".

You know what i mean?

 

[Putzfrau]

WD is largely useless as far as I can tell.

Look at the etc lizardmen lists. The best players in the world seem to disagree with you.

Why do you think that is? If WD was useless why is it almost exclusively what's used in competitive lizardmen armies used by the best players in the word in the most difficult tournaments?

If it's garbage there should be a fairly easy explanation for that..

There is literally mountains of evidence for WD being good, at the very least better than mystery.

The burden of proof is on you.

Also I don't know why you keep talking about wyssans. You don't take it for wyssans.

Half the spells in high are literally never worth casting, at least not over any spell in WD. If you want a spell to deal with hordes you'd take life for dwellers. Mystery is never the most optimal choice.

If mystery was so good you'd see it more often. You dont. Because it's not worth taking. There's really nothing else to say.

 

[NexS1]

WD is not useless at all. It's a jack-of-all-trades type thing. I've used the high elf loremaster and it's fun to have access to all sig's. But for me, the signature spells are not the best spells in each lore. I'd much prefer flaming sword over fireball. FoM allows a chance of getting a better spell, albeit a 1/6 chance, and only if you cast a spell beforehand.

The ETC lists have WD, yes. I feel that it's chosen because of its consistency, but as with everything the choice of lore is largely dependant on the build of your army. Lore of light is near useless on an army full of skinks that you don't want in combat. Conversely, it's great with lots of saurus that can have ASF or WS/I10.

 

[Putzfrau]

Yes, army build an opponent always must be taken into account.

I assumed we were referring to a take all comers list where opponents are chosen at random. Like a tournament.


In a situation like that, a situation where you're making the most optimal choices, WD is superior with almost all army builds.

Even with a different build, like heavy saurus, I think something like light (as you said) or life is more effective than high.

 

[NexS1]

I don't see WD as superior to FoM. They have different applications and it depends on what you're comfortable with.

 

[Sleboda]

Why do you think that is? If WD was useless why is it almost exclusively what's used in competitive lizardmen armies used by the best players in the word in the most difficult tournaments?

=> Aww, shoot, that's an easy one...

Because those tournaments don't actually play Warhammer. They play some sort of comped Frankenstein's Monster that sort of resembles Warhammer. Pretty hard to draw any meaningful conclusions from most of those, I'd say*.



(* and say without knowing which events you mean - just making a sweeping generalization and assuming the horror of ETC )

WD is not useless at all. It's a jack-of-all-trades type thing.

=> If I could take it on a 150 pt skink, I'd be all over it. The 330 point investment in a Target-Frog (that makes his body guard unit less useful) is the real problem, I believe.

 

[NexS1]

FoM, or even plain-old-Lv4 can give you some direct buffs for the TG, true. I've been a big fan of Life recently, but my next game will see me run FoM for evaluation purposes. I'm trying to build my next tournament list

 

[Putzfrau]

Why do you think that is? If WD was useless why is it almost exclusively what's used in competitive lizardmen armies used by the best players in the word in the most difficult tournaments?

=> Aww, shoot, that's an easy one...

Because those tournaments don't actually play Warhammer. They play some sort of comped Frankenstein's Monster that sort of resembles Warhammer. Pretty hard to draw any meaningful conclusions from most of those, I'd say*.



(* and say without knowing which events you mean - just making a sweeping generalization and assuming the horror of ETC )

.

Huge rant i've edited out.


TLDR: WD and the slann are not good because of comp. They are used in uncomped tournaments also to great effect.

I've yet to hear any reasonings or examples as to why, for whatever reason, WD seems to be unanimously chosen by the best players in the world in a variety of tournaments/comps.

It seems like these players, generally, have a vested interest in doing well. Again, it seems like that if WD was "useless" or the Slann was a "330 point target-frog" These players would be the first to jump ship to more optimal choices.

It appears as if the WD slann has merely become MORE numerous.

Why is that the case? If the slann is just waiting to be shot off, why is it consistently used in comped and uncomped environments?

Why aren't slannless lists more popular if the slann is such a risk?

Why isn't mystery everywhere if it does everything WD does WHILE having fiery convocation?

Why does the typical lizardmen list look pretty similar across various metas/countries/comps/and tournaments?

Is it possible that there actually IS a "most optimal" choice? And fairly to make that effective is merely a matter of player error?


I understand not everyone looks at this game like "whats most optimal" and honestly, most of the time I don't either. That merely seems to be the argument at hand.

 

[hdctambien]

It seems like these players, generally, have a vested interest in doing well. Again, it seems like that if WD was "useless" or the Slann was a "330 point target-frog" These players would be the first to jump ship to more optimal choices.

It appears as if the WD slann has merely become MORE numerous.

Why is that the case? If the slann is just waiting to be shot off, why is it consistently used in comped and uncomped environments?

I ask because I don't know: Are these WD lists doing well at these tournaments?

It was my understanding that Lizardmen lists are played for draws (at least in the ETC team tournaments). And if I remember correctly the last popular list to go around the internet (that placed well in a tournament) was the Slannless Cold One bus.

 

[Putzfrau]

Yes. The SCGT had several lizardmen lists on the top 10. I believe one was life and one was WD.

Jack Armstrong is wildly considered the best UK player and he has played lizardmen almost exclusively for the past few years. His current list has WD.

Lizardmen isn't just played for draws, it plays hard lists because it has no bad match ups. It can get 20-0 wins, but shouldn't give up more than a draw.

Slann less cold one bus is used almost exclusively by one individual, Adam daly. He plays it to great effect, but i wouldn't really say it's "going around". He placed 7th at SCGT behind raf Harbinson who was using life and Jack who was using WD.

Obviously slann with WD isn't the only build that can perform well, it just seems to have the most presence on the competitive scene with life following shortly after.

I believe death to still be effective but it is often comped and/or WD gives you spirit leech anyways and has more utility than death.

Life has dwellers and is great for TG bunkers. Regen, toughness, and throne of vines are all great. dwellers is self explanatory.

 

[NexS1]

The only downside to life is that you only get 4 spells. When you're used to having 8 spells, non WD/FoM slanns are quite foreign.

 

[RipperDerek]

Putzfrau,

I've yet to hear any reasonings or examples as to why, for whatever reason, WD seems to be unanimously chosen by the best players in the world in a variety of tournaments/comps.

There are many things in a lot of "competitive" tournament lists that are objectively mistakes. Many of those same lists put the Slann with a temple guard unit, for example. These lists then take WD because casting many small spells has less of a chance to miscast, which can severely damage the TG unit, especially since you can't put the Slann on a corner. They take Life sometimes for similar reasons - it benefits the temple guard block that houses the Slann, and gives protection against miscasts. This doesn't say anything about which spells are more desirable to have, just which choices are less likely to cause you to blow yourself up.

By removing the Slann from the temple guard, you make the TG fight better, and the Slann less afraid of miscasts. Once you do that, WD and Life both lose much of their appeal.

Unfortunately, "good players do it, so how can it be bad?" Is not a merit based argument. If you want to make the case for WD, I suggest arguing the case on its merits, rather than making an appeal to authority.

 

[Putzfrau]

Haha oooookay

The point was never good players do it so how can it be bad.

It was how do you explain this staggering amount of evidence supporting my claim.

Saying "those tournament players are all wrong" isn't very convincing.


High isn't even a top 5 lore. You feel differently. We can agree to disagree.